Forums General Discussion 2020 Grandmasters stone

37 replies, 8 voices Last updated by davidechols 4 years, 4 months ago
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    • #6077

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I would like some clarification on how to judge the size of the stone. Dan Lynch in his cutting review says to measure from the G4, G5 point to P11. Well P11 does not meat the girdle so is one supposed to guess on where one thinks P11 will hit the girdle. The L/W of the stone is 1.001 so it seems to me that a more accurate measuring point would be the 96, 48 point. Which is G1 /G9.

    • #6078

      scottwkelley
      Participant
      @scottwkelley

      I agree, for setting reasons. 96 to 48

    • #6079

      Dan Lynch
      Participant
      @danlynch

      Good catch – I certainly made an error on the width instructions. Stay tuned, this is being checked with the head of the competition committee and we will post here and update the write up timely.

    • #6083

      Carmina Orilla
      Participant
      @carminaorilla

      Great question. I was just wondering the same thing when I was reading the instructions. I hope we can get the info soon.

      Thank you for keeping us up to date.

    • #6085

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I have been studying the diagram and now understand that this design is really a misshapen-ed round by having a L/W of 1.001. The largest measuring points would be 24/72 which would be points or 96/48 with one flat and one point. Measuring from G5 would be another option but G5 does have an angle involved which would be harder to measure from accurately. It is important to get the size correct or face a large deduction. This design is going to be a challenge to cut, at least for me, with so many angle changes and is worthy of being a Grandmaster stone. I am not sure I will enter having taken a break from faceting for a number of years. Depends on how well by test cuts turn out.

    • #6086

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      To boil it all down, the width should be measured as marked on the diagram. Surely a Grand Master candidate can interpret a GemCad diagram.

    • #6087

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Alan, in the review by Dan Lynch he stated it should be measured from G4, G5 and P11. He has since stated he was wrong. That is where the confusion lies. If the review had not stated what it did I would have measured by the diagram. Evidently you have not followed this thread. Why the sarcasm? Is it because I said I like an analog angle head and you disagreed with you previous post?

    • #6088

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I should add Dan has stated it will reviewed by the competition committee which should settle the matter. Others wait on the answer as well because having the size correct without any question really matters.

    • #6090

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      ” Surely a Grand Master candidate can interpret a GemCad diagram.”

      I just want to say that someone who is an officer at the USFG to insult someone insinuating they cannot read a Gemcad diagram is insulting. I would expect more professionalism even if I was not able to read a diagram. Having competed at the International Australian contest I am obligated to compete at the grandmaster level.

    • #6091

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Having competed at the 2014 International Faceting Challenge with 4 other Grandmasters which made up the team and placing above 2 other Grandmasters on our team I do not have to prove I can cut at the Grandmaster level. At least I could in 2014. I placed 11th against all the cutters in the world that entered that event.

      Alan I look forward to hearing about your accomplishments in the Faceting world.

    • #6092

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I do not think I want to participate on this forum any more if this is the an officer treats a member. At my age I do not need the hassle and drama that goes on at a forum when one just ask a simple question about the correct size of a competition stone.

    • #6094

      Ron Davis
      Participant
      @rondavis

      Alan , you are spot on.
      Master and Grand Master’s have the skills to read a simple design
      and figure it out.

    • #6095

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I am perfectly able to design a stone using Gemcad but for the sake of us that are not as intelligent as Alan and Ron let them tell us the place to measure from to achieve 12mm and not be penalized. Dan has already stated that the competition committee is going to give clarification but appears your two already know how so tell us. As I see the diagram the largest measuring point would be either 24/72 or 96/48. Either should be the longest spot being that the L/W is 1.001. I honestly believe Alan’s post was just made being a jerk towards me, to insult me. Both of you tell us where to measure from where no one will be measuring from the wrong place or perhaps you both just want to keep the info for yourselves to have an advantage.

    • #6097

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I got away for faceting having achieved my goal of being on the American team competing at the Olympics of gemcutting the Australian International Challenge and for the last 5 years or more I have been building audio amplifiers. I have built more than 40 with 15 or more being tube amplifiers built just from a schematic with the technique of point to point. Compared to an electronic schematic a facet diagram is no more than child’s play. It is insulting to me for members here to challenge my ability to read a Gemcad diagram any worse than they can. I am in good company with Dan Lynch waiting for clarification from the committee. Unless the two smarter guys can tell us where to measure from being that their talents are better than mine I will wait to hear from the committee.

    • #6099

      scottwkelley
      Participant
      @scottwkelley

      Hi David, drawings…being a tech myself, I can agree on complexity and even the schematics you are building from, tube I take it, are small too, but complex on it’s own merit and knowledge. Reading a diagram is what it is all about. What I find funny is all the drawings I have seen used for faceting or any mechanical drawing is they are to scale. Take the calipers and measure the drawing and calculate. Am I thinking to simple here and all those numbers, simple math again, How else does one figure out if they have enough material, math…can someone explain the volume formula and how that is used?

    • #6100

      Frankwood
      Participant
      @Frankwood

      The width of the stone in ALL cutting instructions is the W dimension and that is on the 96/48 axis.
      Dan Lynch has inadvertently thrown a big spanner in the works by saying it’s not with this stone and that it’s on the junction between girdle facets G4 and G5. Hope you don’t mind me saying Dan, that is also wrong. If you were to measure the stone in that direction the widest point is between the junction of G5 and G6.

      Just a quick comment from the land of fire and smoke.

    • #6101

      Frankwood
      Participant
      @Frankwood

      Got that wrong about the W dimension (width) always being on the 96/48 axis. I looked through the cutting instructions of the stones I had cut in recent years before making that comment and all had the width in the 96/48 axis. But in the US 2020 Masters and Novices stones the width is in the 24/72 axis.
      Anyway in the Grand Masters stone it’s in the 96/48 axis and I will be competing in this section for the first time.

    • #6102

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      My, my, what a reaction. I apologize for not being more clear. If there was sarcasm, it was certainly not directed at the competitors, but at anyone who thinks a cutting review has to explain what the width measurement is. IMO, the review should not have tried to tell anyone how to measure the width.
      Keep in mind that the reviews are not part of the rules. If they’re helpful, well and good. If not, ignore them.

    • #6103

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Alan your answers have been very helpful. Figure it out by yourself and if I am not able to do that I should not be cutting in the Grandmaster class.

      The confusion lies, at least for me, in that most competition stones are measured from flats and not points. Alan you have never competed in even a novice class so it does not matter at all to you. All you can do is give smart comments. I feel like forums should be helpful and positive but some people just want to be rude.

      All I did by starting this thread is ask a simple question. Some of answers have not been helpful at all. Just rude comments. It might be that I am not worthy to compete in the Grandmaster class unless I can figure it by myself, at least that is what some members are saying indirectly.

      Thanks guys.

    • #6104

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Frank I think you have gave the best answer and I also agree with what you have said. At least there will be one flat which will make it easier to measure for the competitors and judges. Scott, I had measured the diagram with calipers and I found the width and length the same as the L/W is stated on the diagram 1.001. At least by one thousands.

      I honestly do not see the problem with asking on this forum how to measure this stone. Obviously two members on this forum disagree. Neither gave a constructive answer, only criticism. I call that rude in my world.

      Also I wanted to mention that the pdf pavilion diagram is not very clear like the Gemcad version. Perhaps someone can post a better pdf pavilion diagram for those that do not have Gemcad and want to compete.

    • #6105

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Alan Balmer, it is apparent since you never answered my original question that you did not know where to measure this stone. You and I both know that your original post was an attack on me for disagreeing with you on the new Ultra-tec thread saying that a Grandmaster or “candidate” should know how to measure that stone. I really do not see where you are qualified to even post on this thread never actually competed yourself. It is easy to criticize someone when you have not actually done it yourself. It is apparent to me that you have issues with anyone that disagrees with you. I would appreciate it if you would just leave me alone from now on. Be more professional than that.

      I appreciate all the constructive answers the members have posted. At least we have many more Gentlemen participating on this forum than not. I had a good understanding on where the stone should be measured but only wished to have confirmation. Good luck everyone.

    • #6106

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      David, you are wrong. As I said, my criticism was NOT directed at the competitors. It as certainly not directed at you. I didn’t mention any names – no reason for you to be defensive.

      I did not answer the original question because it was about the discrepancy and confusion, and had to be answered by the author of the review.

      I suppose you consider it payback of some kind to accuse me of not knowing the answer. I actually gave the answer, which is “Look at the diagram”.

      It’s true that I have little interest in competition, but I’ve been in the part-time lapidary and mineral business for about 55 years, and a reasonably accomplished faceter for 15+.

    • #6107

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      Got that wrong about the W dimension (width) always being on the 96/48 axis.

      Yes, in my experience the width measurement is nearly always in the 24/72 dimension. I found it odd that the Grand Master design was 96/48.

      most competition stones are measured from flats and not points

      Actually, without doing an exhaustive study, I’d guess the opposite is true. Even the common SRB is a point-to-point measurement. In this year’s SSC, only the novice stone is measured from flats.

    • #6108

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Look at the diagram is no answer. Frank Woodward gave the correct answer.

      ” Surely a Grand Master candidate can interpret a GemCad diagram”

      That statement was directed directly at me because I was the one that started this thread and you consider me a Grandmaster candidate. IT is obvious to me that the quote above was directed right at me. You are not even a certified Novice so it gives you no right to tell me what I should know and not know or anyone else that is a Grandmaster or “candidate”. Have you ever considered I may not be as smart as you or other candidate’s and was looking for some help. Your first post was not any help at all, just being sarcastic. You sir are no gentleman. From this thread there are others not as smart as yourself that also wanted some clarification. There is no reason to belittle me or them.

      You owe us an apology but I am not expecting that from you.

    • #6109

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      can someone explain the volume formula and how that is used?

      (Sorry for the clumsy wordage – I don’t want to fool with html for the superscripts.)

      “Volume divided by width cubed = N” is used to estimate the finished weight of a stone. So, Volume = N*width cubed. Cube W (in cm), multiply by N, then multiply by the specific gravity of the material. This gives you the estimated weight in grams.

    • #6110

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      Also I wanted to mention that the pdf pavilion diagram is not very clear like the Gemcad version. Perhaps someone can post a better pdf pavilion diagram for those that do not have Gemcad and want to compete.

      I agree, and I don’t know how those PDFs were generated. I’ve attached a pdf generated directly from GemCad. I’ve never done an attachment before – hope it works 🙂

      Attachments:
      You must be logged in to view attached files.
    • #6112

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      “Even the common SRB is a point-to-point measurement.”

      That is news to me. When I was in the gem and jewelry trade I always measured a mounted SRB diamond on the flats to give an estimate on the carat weight of the stone. If I were cutting a SRB for competition I would measure on the flats.

      If I am wrong it would not be the first time it has ever happened. I would not be able to count the number of times I have been wrong in my lifetime.

    • #6114

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      Here’s the classic (for me – the first stone I ever cut), Long & Steele. Measuring flat to flat is close enough for weight estimation. For competition, you would want to measure 48/96 as the diagram shows.

      Attachments:
      You must be logged in to view attached files.
    • #6116

      JTheesfeld
      Participant
      @JTheesfeld

      The Barion Heart – Transfer Grand Master gem states it was designed by Shifter55. Does anyone know who Shifter55 really is? The only place I find anything out about this design is “The Gemology Project.”
      Not sure why, I would just like to know who actually designed this gem.
      Thanks

    • #6117

      JTheesfeld
      Participant
      @JTheesfeld

      The Barion Heart – Transfer Grand Master gem states it was designed by Shifter55. Does anyone know who Shifter55 really is? The only place I find anything out about this design is “The Gemology Project.”
      Not sure why, I would just like to know who actually designed this gem.
      Thanks

    • #6118

      Frankwood
      Participant
      @Frankwood

      That’s a much better quality PDF for the comp stone Alan, the first one was only 15KB.
      It will be a couple of months before I start to cut this stone and I will probably cut the whole thing in Quartz first down to the 1200 grit stage, just to see how it goes. I will follow Dan Lynch’s advice apart from the width LOL as changing the cutting sequence can help a lot. Especially if they are already pointed out before you start cutting.

    • #6119

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      Alan I think you are wrong about measuring a SRB for competition and if you were cutting a SRB for competition you would need to ask the question of the committee much as I did on this forum. I am a long time member of the diyaudio forum, specifically the Pass section, and the rule there is no question is too silly to ask on the forum. I do not care to go back and forth with you flaming trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. All I wanted to know is how the committee is going to measure the size of the stone. I feel it was inappropriate for you, especially being a keymaster, to post “Surely a Grand Master candidate can interpret a GemCad diagram.” It was directed specifically at me for some reason since it was my question. I do not feel it was an inappropriate question. Better to be sure than sorry. I am sorry and apologize if I offended you in any way in this section or a previous section. I am too old to be making enemies.

    • #6120

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I just recieved a private message from Alan Balmer, a keymaster, stating and I quote.

      “The forums are a free-for-all group discussion, not a question and answer venue.”

      I must assume I was wrong for asking a question on how to measure the stone.

    • #6121

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I guess the next step from Alan Balmer is going to ban any questions if he has his way about it.

    • #6122

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      I must assume I was wrong for asking a question on how to measure the stone.

      No, you should assume you are wrong for assuming that each and every post is strictly directed to you. I’m sorry you feel persecuted. End of discussion, so far as I’m concerned.

    • #6123

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I was just posting what you said in a private message. You politely answered a question in this thread from someone else but on my question on how to properly measure this Grandmaster stone you gave the amateur’s answer that someone that has never faceted would give. Follow the diagram, sarcasm. I bet there is not a topic posted on this forum where there are not questions and answers but you tell me in a private message that this forum is not a question and answer venue. I call that being directed at me. Everyone else is free to ask questions but I am not supposed to from your private message.

      This banter back and forth started on the topic of the new Ultra-tec where having an electronic background I disagreed with you on the topic of how long consumer electronics components life expectancy is from the manufacturers. You then carried your contempt of me for explaining that to you to this topic and that is evident for everyone to see. Obviously you cannot take being wrong. The word that comes to mind is VINDICTIVE. You are a keymaster, whatever that means, and I assume you govern this forum so you can make up the rules as you feel like to each member.

      I do agree with you on the last statement you made. It would be nice if this is the end of the discussion. Unless you just have to have the last word.

    • #6124

      Alan Balmer
      Keymaster
      @alanbalmer

      If anyone has further comments, please send me a private message. I promise that it will remain private, and not be repeated on the forum.

    • #6132

      davidechols
      Participant
      @davidechols

      I totally agree. I am ashamed of some of the posting I have made on this forum directed at you. Forgive me as I have forgiven you. It is past time to move on. On many forums this thread would have been closed.

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