Forums General Discussion Oldest Gem Design Challenge

29 replies, 11 voices Last updated by peter 1 week, 6 days ago
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 30 total)
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  • #4720

    JTheesfeld
    Participant
    @JTheesfeld

    Justin,

    I am amazed at the efforts you are putting into documenting excellent faceting history! Your series of web pages are most valuable…please keep up the great work!

    A link on your own website to the following publication, might produce the oldest documented gem design I have found to date. It is:

    http://www.folds.net/diamond_design/index.html

    Diamond Design
    A Study of the Reflection and Refraction of Light in a Diamond
    by Marcel Tolkowsky, B.Sc., A.C.G.I.
    with 37 illustrations

    E. & F. N. Spon logo
    London: E. & F. N. Spon, Ltd., 57 Haymarket, S.W. 1
    New York: Spon & Chamberlain, 120 Liberty Street
    1919

    Contained in this document, by Marcel Tolkowski, are diagrams of an SRB with very specific, although somewhat complicated, angles for faceting. I would consider this a complete, documented design, dated 1919. This entire Diamond Design Study is completely fascinating to anyone interested in seeing the details of how Marcel Tolkowski worked out the proper design for an SRB.

    #4834

    Justin Prim
    Participant
    @justinprim

    Jeff, I didn’t know if Tolkowsky counted since it’s not necessarily laid out like a faceting diagram. You are correct though he does give images and angles. Speaking of diamond design, have you read American Cut: The first 100 years? I just read it and its a fun and historical read about the creation of the modern SRB and all the steps it went through before Tolkowsky and after.

    Glad you enjoyed my website. It’s a great way for me to stay organized in my research while also being able to share my findings with others. I have been in deep research mode for a bit over a year and it’s pretty incredible what’s out there to be found if you can figure out where to look.

    #4896

    gailbumala
    Participant
    @gailbumala

    Has anyone checked in with Scott Sucher? While he has re-created the famous old diamonds-he may have run across what you’re looking for.

    #4899

    JTheesfeld
    Participant
    @JTheesfeld

    Gail,

    Yes, Scott and I have discussed this many times. Scott’s replica research comes from many sources, mostly old images, one line diagrams, and whenever possible, actual inspection of the gems. Rarely are full designs available, and his replica techniques are amazingly complex, in order to get exact facet layouts. There are many old gems, but old designs are very rare. We still have not found an actual design with diagram, index settings and angles over 100 years old. This is mostly because complete designs evolved along with technology, and faceting technology is relatively recent. Have you, or anyone else, found anything earlier. If so, I would love to know about it.

    I do encourage everyone to visit Scott’s websites at
    http://www.museumdiamonds.com
    and his new site at
    http://www.scottthestonecutter.com

    There is so much to learn from Scott’s efforts!

    #6743

    peter
    Participant
    @Peter

    Hello,
    I`m new here.
    I`m a hobby gemstone cutter from the Netherlands.
    I`m looking for the 9 faceting designs of the Cullinan, I wan to cut then out of glass for myself.
    Maybe somebody can help me to find them.
    Greetings Peter.

    #6744

    JTheesfeld
    Participant
    @JTheesfeld

    Available via an open internet search.
    All 9 Cullinan designs are available in this document, and much more. Historical Texas Faceters Guild project.

    http://texas-topaz.com/files/diamonds/Diamond_Replica_Project_final.pdf

    #6745

    peter
    Participant
    @Peter

    wow, thank you, now I can hobby, thank again.

    #6789

    mr-john
    Participant
    @Mr.John

    Can someone help me understand how it’s now okay to reproduce (by taking pictures) copyrighted material and publish it online for all to have?

    #6790

    Justin Prim
    Participant
    @justinprim

    Anything before 1923 if outside of copyright and free for public use. Same goes for anything 70 years after the authors death.

    For rare and out of print books I personally think that sharing a page or even a useful chapter online is no problem as access to information overrules Whatever other issues you might have. Of course if the author is alive and trying to sell books that’s a different story but since this thread is referencing very old things I don’t think we have to worry about that.

    #6791

    mr-john
    Participant
    @Mr.John

    Lapidary Journal is still in publication. Can I take a photo of an article in last month’s issue and post it without infringing on their copyright? Last year’s articles? Something from 1960?

    Are there laws, or are we allowed to draw lines by rationalizing that our good intent makes it okay?

    I’m not picking a fight, you can see by some of my past posts that I’m genuinely curious about how and where we draw the line. For example, facetdiagrams.org contains thousands of designs, most of which aren’t available even though the designers are long gone, or at the very least aren’t looking to make money from the design. That seems a bit ridiculous.

    Fred W. Van Sant published several design volumes, Star Cuts. My understanding is that Jeff Graham purchased the copyright to Van Sant’s material. Graham’s estate still sells his books via SilverSupplies.com, but they don’t sell Van Sant’s books. With Fred and Jeff no longer living and Fred’s books no longer being sold (I can’t find them), are we free to now share his designs?

    #6792

    Justin Prim
    Participant
    @justinprim

    Both of the examples you gave are people that died in the last 30 or so years. Their (published) work is still legally under copyright. 70 years after they die, by US law as far as I know it, it goes into public domain. That doesn’t mean people can’t still sell it but that’s why you see tons of old pre 1940s books badly reprinted and sold on amazon as cheap, in-demand paperbacks.

    I’m not sure that faceting diagrams that haven’t been formally published in a book or magazine fall into protection at all. I doubt it, as there is no way to prove the date of authorship.

    Lapidary journal is a different story. The company that put out the first 50 years of issues no longer exists and the magazine was purchased by a new company. I’m currently talking to them about sharing early issues that I have. Since they don’t have them and don’t seem to care about them I hope they will allow it.

    That’s the law. Moral issue is a different thing and it’s obvious you and I don’t agree on it so there’s no point in discussing it. For me, as a historian and academic researcher, it’s essential that I am able to have unrestricted access to prior written works. I appreciate libraries and archive.org for making this so much easier but in the case where there are very limited copies of certain books or they only exist in inaccessible collections, what else is one supposed to do?

    As a side note, considering all the other atrocities going on in the world, isn’t there a more constructive battle we should be putting our energies into?

    #6793

    Justin Prim
    Participant
    @justinprim

    Actually after rereading your post, yes, I totally agree with you. I think we should definitely have open access to all the old diagramS of Faceters who are long dead. Why not? Would those authors want them to be inaccessible after all the work? No one is taking care of them and they’re getting passed around in private circles anyway. Unleash the flood gates and let us learn from our elders triumphs and past mistakes !

    #6794

    Alan Balmer
    Keymaster
    @alanbalmer

    I’m not sure that faceting diagrams that haven’t been formally published in a book or magazine fall into protection at all. I doubt it, as there is no way to prove the date of authorship.

    Not true. Copyright exists from the moment a work is put in tangible form. If you think a work is past copyright and are challenged, it’s up to you to prove the age, not the copyright holder.

    it’s essential that I am able to have unrestricted access to prior written works.

    Are you confusing distribution and access? Nothing prevents you from having access to any work you can find, and even publishing bits of it under the fair use rules.

    I think we should definitely have open access to all the old diagramS of Faceters who are long dead. Why not?

    The authors may be dead, but their estates still exist. Do you think your home should become public domain after you die?

    #6815

    Justin Prim
    Participant
    @justinprim

    A while back, Jeff Theefield posed a challenge to find the oldest faceting design and today I think I have discovered it. In 1850, Charles Holzapffel published the book Turning and Mechanical Manipulation in London. While dissecting his chapter on cutting facets, I discovered that not only did he have a powerful impact on the faceting technology that would later be developed in America but also that he left precise faceting instructions with angles and indices for a 96 index handpiece. I have taken his drawings and written instructions and turned them into a modern diagram that I would like to share with everyone today.
    Before 1820, no one was cutting with specific angle numbers and for sure no one was cutting with an index gear. It’s possible there could be an older record of precise index-based instructions from the 1820s in Geneva but I feel pretty confident that these instructions from London are the oldest. Enjoy and if you cut it, let me know. I’d love to see what it looks like.

    Also, fun historical fact… The instructions that he wrote in the 1850 book were meant to be cut on this Goniostat “handpiece”, a tool that was made for making precision lathe tools, but that he adapted to facet cutting. You can see what it looks like here:
    Exquisite EVANS Goniostat – 69252

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    #6819

    peter
    Participant
    @Peter

    Nice, the older the better.
    Hello JTheefeld for some reason I can not open my message.

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